In the Beginning . . .

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I realize that we’re already two weeks into 2017, but Happy New Year from the Belfry!

In the spirit of resolutions, I’m starting this new year with a new look and a new approach. My plan is to present a familiar point of controversy, address the issue as I understand it, state my opinion, then conduct an anonymous survey. I thought it might be fun for people to respond without having to put their names out there, though obviously the posts are still open for comments and discussion.

Also in the spirit of new beginnings, I’m starting this first post with the first chapter of the first book of the Bible. Specifically, the age of the earth debate.   

Back when I was at Village Christian, I remember overhearing a statement like this in the teachers’ lounge: “If God did not create the world in a literal six days, the Bible cannot be trusted, and if the Bible cannot be trusted, we might as well throw out the whole thing, Jesus included.”

There was another person in the room that I knew would disagree. He was one of the high school science teachers, and he taught a theory in my home Bible study that he’d learned from a Christian astrophysicist named Hugh Ross. He showed us how each so-called “day” of Creation actually lined up with the large phases that science has revealed were necessary to prepare the earth for life.

If we put these two teachers together, I assume their conversation would go something like this:

“The Bible doesn’t leave the door open for the six days to be any longer than 24 hours. The author clearly says ‘evening and morning’ which is how a Jew would describe a 24-hour day.”

“But there were no eye-witnesses to the Creation, which means the Creation story had to be revealed to Moses by God. And we know that for God a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day. Do you really think the ‘Day’ of Judgement is going to be 24 hours?”

“Why are you so quick to dismiss the 24 hours? When God created humans, he created a man, not an embryo. We know the chicken came first, not the egg. So why couldn’t God create an aged earth? Why wait all those years to get started?”  

“First of all, God doesn’t wait. Einstein proved that time is part of the material universe, part of the Creation. Time wouldn’t apply to the Creator. Secondly, what do you do with the fossil record? Did God bury all those things in the ground just to confuse us? What do you do with carbon dating, ice core samples, or the ever-expanding universe? God is not the author of confusion.”

“It’s not confusing. It’s called faith. Should Christians really have to prove everything scientifically before they believe it? Maybe God gave us this mystery to test us.”

“You really think God created hundreds of thousands of artificial snow layers in Antarctica just because he knew that scientists in our century would take core samples and Christians would have to make a choice about their faith in the Bible?”

“It’s not our job to question how or why God does what he does. It is our responsibility to trust his Word.”

“So there’s no room for interpretation.”

“Not when the Bible is clear.”

“According to your interpretation.”

“According to a clear, unbiased reading of the text!”

There are obviously a lot more directions this conversation could go. For the sake of stirring a pot that will always boil and may never fully cook, I’ll offer my current opinion on the issue, knowing that my perspective will probably evolve in time. (see what I did there?)

Ignored by Scripture:

My OT professor in seminary warned us not to ask questions of a text that it does not ask itself. The creation account of Genesis 1 is presented in poetic form, not narrative, which requires it to be approached and interpreted appropriately.

The presentation begins with places—heavens, earth and seas—covering the first three days. The next three days are concerned with the rulers of those places—sun and moon for the heavens, and human beings for the earth, managers of the plants and animals. The seventh day is when God rests from all he has made, presenting him as supreme ruler of all.

To keep reading Genesis is to see how this natural hierarchy is broken by Adam and Eve’s rebellion, setting up the entire narrative of redemptive history, the spine of the Scriptures. This approach would suggest that the author of Genesis wrote the Creation story with theological themes in mind, not scientific.

Ignored by God:  

As I’ve mentioned many times before, the ancients saw the world in three tiers—the heavens, where the gods lived; the earth, where the humans lived; and the underworld for the dead. Throughout Scripture, God does not go out of his way to straighten out the science of his people. In fact, he seems to play along with their assumptions.

HEAVEN:

How often does God’s judgment or presence come from the sky? How often is heaven associated with it?

The Flood. The Tower of Babel. Sodom and Gomorrah. The Plagues. Meetings on mountains—Sinai, Zion, the transfiguration. The rising smoke of the sacrifices. The lighting of Elijah’s soggy altar. The ascension of Elijah’s fiery chariot. The voice from heaven. The dove from heaven. The visions of Ezekiel, Stephen and Paul.

Need I go on?

We still look to the sky when we think of heaven, but no one asks the International Space Station if they’ve seen God’s cube city on their scanners, or a resurrected man riding toward earth on a white horse.

UNDERWORLD:

The ground opens up and swallows the rebellious sons of Korah. Jonah slips beneath the sea, claiming a direct access to Sheol. Not only do the philosophers and poets of Israel affirm a belief in a subterranean destiny for the dead, righteous or unrighteous, so do the prophets.

Even when God himself speaks, he supports this false view of the universe, like a parent affirming a stork-based delivery system for babies. Check out this passage from Job 38:

Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep? Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness? Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this. What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years! Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail, which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle? What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?

Even though Jesus introduced his people to a more spiritual way of thinking about the afterlife, he also played to the worldview of his listeners, telling a parable about a dead master and servant in Sheol, and literally ascending into the sky while claiming to return to his Father.

Apparently, for whatever reason, God didn’t address science even when he was a biological part of his Creation. Maybe he didn’t want people to be distracted. Maybe he didn’t think his first century audience was ready for it. Maybe science is something he wants us to explore on our own.

For me, the first chapter of Genesis affirms that there is an intelligence and a purpose behind everything, which puts me, as a created being, in a certain posture.

As for the age of the earth . . . I’m okay with young or old, as long as my priorities stay aligned with the priorities of my Creator. That would make my vote a solid “I don’t know.”

What’s yours?

12 thoughts on “In the Beginning . . .

  1. I lean toward an old earth. There were probably previous ages during which the dinosaurs roamed the earth. In Genesis 1:2 where it says the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep, this probably indicates that the time of the dinosaurs ended in a catastrophe and then the six days of creation in Genesis was a “recreation”.

    I’ve been looking into evidence of pre-flood civilizations and have found that there was definitely a large scale, world wide collapse of civilizations right around the time of Noah’s flood which would have been roughly about 2,350BC. These civiliazations had a high degree of commonality and trade between them. They sprang up quickly flourished and then died out suddenly all roughly in the same time frame. These civilizations included the Indus Valley civilization in India, the Old Kingdom Egypt which sprang up quickly to build the pyramids of stone and then collapsed, Mesopotamian civilizations and civilizations in China that rose quickly and then collapsed. There was even major climate change happening when the “holocene climatic optimum” came to an end about this time. I have a facebook page with some of this documented: https://www.facebook.com/groups/528942523974096/

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    • Hi Charles,

      I remember growing up with an old Scofield Bible, and reading commentary on the “gap theory,” which says that there may have been a very long time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. I have no problem with that.

      Interesting stuff about the collapse of civilizations. I’ll have to check that out. I appreciate the link!

      Like

  2. I voted “I don’t care” but that is not necessarily what I mean. I could also answer just as solidly “I don’t know”. What I do know is that the age of the earth has no effect on my belief regarding the Creator who I know is eternal.

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    • Right! It’s an interesting conversation, but it’s more of a curiosity than a core issue. I think the main thing is to believe that there IS a Creator (which opens the door to purpose and design and accountability) but the details may be out of reach, or at least in process.

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  3. Hi John,
    Hope your new year is well with your family. I remember I needed to finish a post a while back, but was not able to because a combination of jury duty and the holiday season family related stuff.

    Came in the Belfry to finish responding to that post mentioned, but seems you made more posts since then. Which is awesome as reading them has stirred some thoughts and I, definitely, want to discuss them, but will take some time as need to look up reference verses.

    As for me, just want to first quickly (or not so quickly) chime in and take part, in your first survey vote, I picked “I don’t know”. The reason being that I really do not know the exact age of the earth. Currently, as God continues to work and discipline me, He has not touched much on this much as of yet, but one theory I was introduced in due process of studying with God is the idea that there will be 6000 years before the millenial reign of Christ. His return being on the 7th 1000’s year so to speak, like the ultimate Sabbath.

    Now, I realize that many would role their eyes seeing the pink elephant in the room, of the fact that we are in 2017 plus all the scientific research throughout the years, but my personal thoughts are that the dating systems of man, at this point cannot really be trusted.

    I am by no means saying we should be irresponisble in how we schedule our day to day lives by living by our own made up calendars; just as Jesus mentioned regarding taxes and Saul/Paul mentioned regarding obedience to authority figures in the governmental entitites while we are in the world, we must be in the world, for the time being.

    That being said the reason why the idea of a 6000 years before the millenial reign is something that makes sense to me is first the whole idea that for God the number 7 is always a rest period.

    – 7th day of 1 week =
    7th day Sabbath
    – A week of years 7 Years =
    7th year rest the land and from labor. A week of years Sabbath.
    – 49 years is a Jubilee 7 weeks of years.
    Meaning 7 years x 7 =
    It’s like a super Sabbath.
    A year or rest, remission, forgiveness, setting free of debt-bondage (symbolism of salvation from sin).

    As for the science, beyond the fact that based on the little research God has led me to up to this point regarding this subject, in my opinion a few things are clear:

    1. We have changed calendar systems constantly. We currently use one based on the Roman Catholicism. Civilizations throughout history have kept time differently, so to claim we have the absolute correct one is a bit presumptious considering, even by the current Gregorian calendar it was found that Jesus’s birth year was miscalulated. So in other words, while people might think I am crazy, in my opinion, how can we be absolutely sure it has been even just 500 years since Christ came in the flesh? Noting that the history we are taught, is what the world wants us to believe and hear, and is not necessarily the 100% truth. Some might rebut that the science is the evidence, however, that leads to the second point.

    2. The governing authorities of the world and their affiliated agencies like Space Programs, Intellegence Agencies, confederacies like United Nations and European Union, Military Organizations, etc. All lie constantly to the public, to push their agendas. It seems terribly obvious that all our science is controlled by a system of anti-God of the Bible. Meaning, it would be a logical conclusion to note that any and all evidence that would contradict the millions of billions years, or at the very least ten thousands of years, would be hidden and the alternative be a logical thing to push on society. If we are drilled with this stuff throughout our entire lives while we are in the educational systems, it is a wonder why we would not stop to consider alternatives. As Hitler himself said, “Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually, they will believe it.”

    So, it is like a logical argument. If the starting premise is incorrect, no matter how much sense the arguement might seem to make and the interpretation of the evidence may even seem to support the arguement, because the starting premise is wrong, though the arguement may be valid it still unsound. (a.k.a. Flawed if not out right false)

    As this applies to science, Our current understanding of science ackowledged by “approved” agencies and authorities (academically) gives the evidence such as radiocarbon dating to prove the old earth, but if the entire premise incorrect then the interpretation of the data is false. Plus, the current acknowledged
    science is based on the theory of evolution. A convenient way to get rid of God out of the picture; therefore, justify living a life of sin. This is the theme God has been helping me notice. That all lies have a little truth, but in the end are just attempts to justify sin.
    I was exactly this way before by God’s grace, he brought me to salvation.

    To give an example:
    Here is what I used to think and struggle with, “If God is good, why is there suffering in the world?”

    God’s response to me was, “Ryan, there is bad stuff not because not because I am not good, but men do not do the good things I ask them to do because if they did there would be no suffering.”

    John 3:18-21
    “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

    God really hammered the discipline with that statement back when I was still an unbeliever. Because it made realize anyone, including myself, when they say that, is assuming that they are perfect and without sin. In other words, as long as we are sinning we are part of the problem of creating suffering big or small, direct or indirect, so before we point a finger at God, we should really start looking at a mirror and seeing if we are part of the problem or the solution, and considering we are part of the problem, we really cannot point a finger at God. The Lord helped me realize that arguements like that and others of it’s kind only sound logical to those who seek to justify their lives of sin, otherwise the assertion is ridiculous because it is a strawman arguement that tries to attack and disprove God in order to justify our lusts.

    Romans 1:18-32
    “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

    (Once again that was me before becoming saved. And though everyday is still a struggle, Praise be to God because He really showed me so much grace and forgiveness considering how arrogant this type of logic is. )

    Then it is a self-fulfilling prophecy as the person affirms their belief that God does not exist, therefore, they are allowed to live life however they please, there by sinning which contributes to suffering. Then, they use the suffering to justify the whole arguement that God does not exist because a good God would not allow suffering, without ever considering the faultiness of such circular reasoning.

    Basically, it would not surprise me, knowing how twisted my logic was, as one who formerly was against God, that if the world literally messed up the way we track time in order to further justify sin. Not to say any individual scientist is secretly plotting to corrupt the minds of the world, but rather because the devil is undoubtly working in the background.

    2 Thessalonians 2:7
    “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.”

    Matthew 4:8-11
    “Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’” Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.”

    1 Corinthians 3:16-21
    “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

    Worldly Wisdom is Foolishness to God
    For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours…”

    Hosea 4:1-13
    “Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.

    By swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood toucheth blood.

    Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away.

    Yet let no man strive, nor reprove another: for thy people are as they that strive with the priest.

    Therefore shalt thou fall in the day, and the prophet also shall fall with thee in the night, and I will destroy thy mother.

    My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

    As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

    They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity.

    And there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.

    For they shall eat, and not have enough: they shall commit whoredom, and shall not increase: because they have left off to take heed to the LORD.

    Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.

    My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

    They sacrifice upon the tops of the mountains, and burn incense upon the hills, under oaks and poplars and elms, because the shadow thereof is good: therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit adultery.”

    Psalm 111:10
    “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.”

    Proverbs 9:10
    “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.”

    Here are some other verses as recorded in the Septuagint:

    “Nevertheless as coming the tokens, behold, the days shall come, that they which dwell upon earth shall be taken in a great number, and the way of truth shall be hidden, and the land shall be barren of faith.”

    “And I said, Speak on, my God. Then said he unto me, The sea is set in a wide place, that it might be deep and great.
    But put the case the entrance were narrow, and like a river;
    Who then could go into the sea to look upon it, and to rule it? if he went not through the narrow, how could he come into the broad?
    There is also another thing; A city is builded, and set upon a broad field, and is full of all good things:
    The entrance thereof is narrow, and is set in a dangerous place to fall, like as if there were a fire on the right hand, and on the left a deep water:
    And one only path between them both, even between the fire and the water, so small that there could but one man go there at once.
    If this city now were given unto a man for an inheritance, if he never shall pass the danger set before it, how shall he receive this inheritance?
    And I said, It is so, Lord. Then said he unto me, Even so also is Israel’s portion.
    Because for their sakes I made the world: and when Adam transgressed my statutes, then was decreed that now is done.
    Then were the entrances of this world made narrow, full of sorrow and travail: they are but few and evil, full of perils,: and very painful.
    For the entrances of the elder world were wide and sure, and brought immortal fruit.
    If then they that live labour not to enter these strait and vain things, they can never receive those that are laid up for them.
    Now therefore why disquietest thou thyself, seeing thou art but a corruptible man? and why art thou moved, whereas thou art but mortal?
    Why hast thou not considered in thy mind this thing that is to come, rather than that which is present?
    Then answered I and said, O Lord that bearest rule, thou hast ordained in thy law, that the righteous should inherit these things, but that the ungodly should perish.
    Nevertheless the righteous shall suffer strait things, and hope for wide: for they that have done wickedly have suffered the strait things, and yet shall not see the wide.
    And he said unto me. There is no judge above God, and none that hath understanding above the Highest.
    For there be many that perish in this life, because they despise the law of God that is set before them.
    For God hath given strait commandment to such as came, what they should do to live, even as they came, and what they should observe to avoid punishment.
    Nevertheless they were not obedient unto him; but spake against him, and imagined vain things;
    And deceived themselves by their wicked deeds; and said of the most High, that he is not; and knew not his ways:
    But his law have they despised, and denied his covenants; in his statutes have they not been faithful, and have not performed his works.
    And therefore, Esdras, for the empty are empty things, and for the full are the full things.
    Behold, the time shall come, that these tokens which I have told thee shall come to pass, and the bride shall appear, and she coming forth shall be seen, that now is withdrawn from the earth.
    And whosoever is delivered from the foresaid evils shall see my wonders.
    For my son Jesus shall be revealed with those that be with him, and they that remain shall rejoice within four hundred years.
    After these years shall my son Christ die, and all men that have life.
    And the world shall be turned into the old silence seven days, like as in the former judgments: so that no man shall remain.”

    “I answered then and said, If I have found grace, let me speak.
    Like as the husbandman’s seed perisheth, if it come not up, and receive not thy rain in due season; or if there come too much rain, and corrupt it:
    Even so perisheth man also, which is formed with thy hands, and is called thine own image, because thou art like unto him, for whose sake thou hast made all things, and likened him unto the husbandman’s seed.
    Be not wroth with us but spare thy people, and have mercy upon thine own inheritance: for thou art merciful unto thy creature.
    Then answered he me, and said, Things present are for the present, and things to cometh for such as be to come.
    For thou comest far short that thou shouldest be able to love my creature more than I: but I have ofttimes drawn nigh unto thee, and unto it, but never to the unrighteous.
    In this also thou art marvellous before the most High:
    In that thou hast humbled thyself, as it becometh thee, and hast not judged thyself worthy to be much glorified among the righteous.
    For many great miseries shall be done to them that in the latter time shall dwell in the world, because they have walked in great pride.
    But understand thou for thyself, and seek out the glory for such as be like thee.
    For unto you is paradise opened, the tree of life is planted, the time to come is prepared, plenteousness is made ready, a city is builded, and rest is allowed, yea, perfect goodness and wisdom.
    The root of evil is sealed up from you, weakness and the moth is hid from you, and corruption is fled into hell to be forgotten:
    Sorrows are passed, and in the end is shewed the treasure of immortality.
    And therefore ask thou no more questions concerning the multitude of them that perish.
    For when men had taken libert to choose, they despised the most High, thought scorn of his law, and forsook his ways.
    Moreover they have trodden down his righteous,
    And said in their heart, that there is no God; yea, and that knowing they must die.
    For as the things aforesaid shalt receive you, so thirst and pain are prepared for them: for it was not his will that men should come to nought:
    But they which be created have defiled the name of him that made them, and were unthankful unto him which prepared life for them.
    And therefore is my judgment now at hand.
    These things have I not shewed unto all men, but unto thee, and a few like thee. Then answered I and said,
    Behold, O Lord, now hast thou shewed me the multitude of the wonders, which thou wilt begin to do in the last times: but at what time, thou hast not shewed me.”

    “And the Lord answered and said unto me: ‘You are rightly astonished regarding the departure of man, but you have not judged well regarding the evils which befall those who sin. And as regards what you have said, that the righteous are carried off and the impious are prospered, and as regards what you have said: “Man knows not Your judgment “—On this account hear, and I will speak to you, and hearken, and I will cause you to hear My words. Man would not rightly have understood My judgment, unless he had accepted the law, and I had instructed him in understanding. But now, because he transgressed wittingly, yea, just on this ground that he knows (about it), he shall be tormented.

    And as regards what you did say touching the righteous, that on account of them has this world come, so also again shall that, which is to come, come on their account. For this world is to them a strife and a labor with much trouble; and that accordingly which is to come, a crown with great glory.’

    And I answered and said: ‘0 LORD, my Lord, lo! the years of this time are few and evil, and who is able in his little time to acquire that which is measureless’

    And the Lord answered and said unto me: ‘With the Most High account is not taken of time nor of a few years. For what did it profit Adam that he lived nine hundred and thirty years and transgressed that which he was commanded Therefore the multitude of time that he lived did not profit him, but brought death and cut off the years of those who were born from him. wherein did Moses suffer loss in that he lived only one hundred and twenty years, and, inasmuch he was subject to Him who formed him, brought the law to the seed of Jacob, and lighted a lamp for the nation of Israel’

    And I answered and said: ‘He that lighted has taken from the light, and there are but few that have imitated him. But those many whom he has lighted have taken from the darkness of Adam and have not rejoiced in the light of the lamp.’

    And He answered and said unto me: ‘Wherefore at that time he appointed for them a covenant and said:

    “Behold I have placed before you life and death,”

    And he called heaven and earth to witness against them.

    For he knew that his time was but short,

    But that heaven and earth endure always.

    But after his death they sinned and transgressed,

    Though they knew that they had the law reproving (them),

    And the light in which nothing could err,

    Also the spheres which testify, and Me.

    Now regarding everything that is, it is I that judge, but do not you take counsel in your soul regarding these things, nor afflict thyself because of those which have been. For now it is the consummation of time that should be considered, whether of business, or of prosperity, or of shame and not the beginning thereof. Because if a man be prospered in his beginnings and shamefully entreated in his old age, he forgets all the prosperity that he had. And again, if a man is shamefully entreated in his beginnings, and at his end is prospered, he remembers not again his evil entreatment. And again hearken: though each one were prospered all that time—all the time from the day on which death was decreed against those who transgress—and in his end was destroyed, in vain would have been everything.’

    Zion has been taken away to hasten the Advent of the Judgment

    ‘Therefore, behold! the days come,

    And the times shall hasten more than the former,

    And the seasons shall speed on more than those that are past,

    And the years shall pass more quickly than the present (years).

    Therefore have I now taken away Zion,

    That I may the more speedily visit the world in its season.

    Now therefore hold fast in your heart everything that I command you,

    And seal it in the recesses of your mind.

    And then I will show you the judgment of My might,

    And My ways which are unsearchable.

    Go therefore and sanctify thyself seven days, and eat no bread, nor drink water, nor speak to anyone. And afterwards come to that place and I will reveal Myself to you, and speak true things with you, and I will give you commandment regarding the method of the times; for they are coming and tarry not.'”

    “‘For behold! the days come and the books shall be opened in which are written the sins of all those who have sinned, and again also the treasuries in which the righteousness of all those who have been righteous in creation is gathered. For it shall come to pass at that time that you shall see—and the many that are with you—the long-suffering of the Most High, which has been throughout all generations, who has been long-suffering towards all who are born, (alike) those who sin and (those who) are righteous.’ And I answered and said: ‘But, behold! O Lord, no one knows the number of those things which have passed nor yet of those things which are to come. For I know indeed that which has befallen us, but what will happen to our enemies I know not, and when you will visit Your works.’

    And He answered and said unto me: ‘You too shall be preserved till that time till that sign which the Most High will work for the inhabitants of the earth in the end of days. This therefore shall be the sign. When a stupor shall seize the inhabitants of the earth, and they shall fall into many tribulations, and again when they shall fall into great torments. And it will come to pass when they say in their thoughts by reason of their much tribulation: “The Mighty ‘One doth no longer remember the earth”—yes, it will come to pass when they abandon hope, that the time will then awake.’

    And I answered and said: ‘Will that tribulation which is to be continue a long time, and will that necessity embrace many years’

    And He answered and said unto me: ‘Into twelve parts is that time divided, and each one of them is reserved for that which is appointed for it. In the first part there shall be the beginning of commotions. And in the second part (there shall be) slayings of the great ones. And in the third part the fall of many by death. And in the fourth part the sending of the sword. And in the fifth part famine and the withholding of rain. And in the sixth part earthquakes and terrors. [Wanting.] And in the eighth part a multitude of specters and attacks of the Shedim. And in the ninth part the fall of fire. And in the tenth part rapine and much oppression. And in the eleventh part wickedness and unchastity. And in the twelfth part confusion from the mingling together of all those things aforesaid. For these parts of that time are reserved, and shall be mingled one with another and minister one to another. For some shall leave out some of their own, and receive (in its stead) from others, and some complete their own and that of others, so that those may not understand who are upon the earth in those days that this is the consummation of the times.

    Nevertheless, whoever understands shall then be wise. For the measure and reckoning of that time are two parts a week of seven weeks.’ And I answered and said: ‘It is good for a man to come and behold, but it is better that he should not come lest he fall. [But I will say this also: Will he who is incorruptible despise those things which are corruptible, and whatever befalls in the case of those things which are corruptible, so that he might look only to those things which are not corruptible] But if; O Lord, those things shall assuredly come to pass which you have foretold to me, so do you show this also unto me if indeed I have found grace in Your sight. Is it in one place or in one of the parts of the earth that those things are come to pass, or will the whole earth experience (them) ‘

    And He answered and said unto me: ‘Whatever will then befall (will befall) the whole earth; therefore all who live will experience (them). For at that time I will protect only those who are found in those self-same days in this land. And it shall come to pass when all is accomplished that was to come to pass in those parts, that the Messiah shall then begin to be revealed. And Behemoth shall be revealed from his place and Leviathan shall ascend from the sea, those two great monsters which I created on the fifth day of creation, and shall have kept until that time; and then they shall be for food for all that are left. The earth also shall yield its fruit ten-thousandfold and on each vine there shall be a thousand branches, and each branch shall produce a thousand clusters, and each cluster produce a thousand grapes, and each grape produce a cor of wine. And those who have hungered shall rejoice: moreover, also, they shall behold marvels every day. For winds shall go forth from before Me to bring every morning the fragrance of aromatic fruits, and at the close of the day clouds distilling the dew of health. And it shall come to pass at that self-same time that the treasury of manna shall again descend from on high, and they will eat of it in those years, because these are they who have come to the consummation of time.

    And it shall come to pass after these things, when the time of the advent of the Messiah is fulfilled, that He shall return in glory.”

    Now I am not trying to saying everthing is wrong, as I am not God, and I am sure there are atill many things God will disicpline me in, it is just to say that the way our so-called “modern”, more advanced, better understand the universe and reality, secular, anti-God world reckons time is, in my current opinion, debatable.

    Daniel 7:25
    “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”

    Just to further point, one of the sections of scripture that God used to bring me to repentance and salvation was:

    Matthew 7:13-27
    “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”

    The Lord explained that the sand the house was built on is like a SANDSTONE. Basically, when things are dry it looks and feels hard like the true rock, but when the floods come the faulty foundation is revealed as the sandstone (or the foundation of beliefs we have built our lives on) will erode and crumble away causing the house (what is supposed to be the temple of God; our very spirit), will fall on judgement day.

    3. As for the whole 7 literal days of creation. I, personally, believe this the more likely answer, though I say that accepting that I could be wrong. It is that in my opinion, as God is capable of doing anything, He is not confined by time, and it seems to me the idea that God took a billions years to allow nature to grow is another excuse to try to limit God’s power and thus explain away God, and thereby lead to a justification of sin. Although once again I could be wrong seeing as who is to say God orginially ordained 24 hours as a day. The point is God made the world in 6 days then rested om the 7th day. It’s just a matter of how God reckons the time between the setting and rising of the sun. Of which I am not sure how he does. The one thing I do feel based on point 2 is that the way world does it, is definietly not right. And retroactively, supperimposing our flawed reckoning of time on God is well…

    …like looking through a telescope backwards.

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    • Woah! That’s a lot to respond to, but good stuff. Thanks for putting in all that work.

      As for the 7 days. Fun fact: The sun was made on the 4th day. Which sure makes “evening and morning” problematic on the first three days. Also the whole “let there be light” thing… Funny, right? It’s part of the presentation, which makes me think there is some interpretation to be done when it comes to the Creation account. Which is why I think it has more of a theological theme than a scientific theme.

      But I agree about the 6 days, 7th day thing. Alongside the 6,000 years + 1,000 years. That’s the presentation of Scripture. Though God’s way of dealing with how the numbers play out might be different than we think.

      His thoughts are not our thoughts. His ways are not our ways.

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      • Hi John,

        Thanks for the reply, sorry for some typos. Scrolling down to look at your reply, I noticed some errors, which I thought I corrected. I worked it a bit in a separate document then pasted it in. I thought I had caught the errors in proof-reading, guess I was wrong, or maybe I pasted in an older version by mistake, it think the sleepiness had a part to play.

        Also, what happened with the formatting, I tried to reply on my phone, but the comment box was sooooo squished, one letter took up a line. Perhaps best to read this on a tablet or laptop on your end, too?

        It looked like this:

        H
        i

        J
        o
        h
        n
        ,

        Maybe it is just my phone not working with the format, as I do have an old phone. Anyways thanks for your thoughts, I wanted to reply because the very issue of the book of Genesis, especially from Creation through the flood has been really bothering me.

        I completely agree that interpretation is necessary. Because if the account is taken, at point blank, well it presents many problems. In my personal opinion, at this moment, as God continues to work on me, is that there are huge swaths of specific information that are missing which would have been already assumed to be known by the Israelites of old, or perhaps that our current canon or version is a bit incomplete. That does not mean we throw out the Bible. I only note this as even the Dead Sea Scrolls contain more “Books” than our current canon. Of interest is the Book of Enoch in regards to the tracking of times, seasons, weeks, and days. Also when Saul/Paul noted that “all scripture is God Breathed” he was referring to the canon of his time, which if the dead sea scrolls are any evidence, there is a possibility it varied from ours, in regards to the Old Testament, also they did not have what we call the New Testament today. Once again, I love our current canon, I just feel the Genesis account is, as you mentioned, written in that specific poetic narrative using historical points to highlight spiritual concepts, but it does not give the exact details.

        Why it bothers me though, is that the specific details are crucial to understanding exactly how God operates, and how He has a relationship with us and how we are supposed to relate with Him.

        Versus like Isaiah 46:10 come to mind:
        “I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'”

        Also, interesting of note, is the whole issue of day and night. I apologize because I totally agree the point of evening and morning presents problems in alignment with the sun and moon cycles. Never occurred to me like the way you mentioned when writing the comment. The reason I apologize though is because re-reading the paragraph I did not write it very well, and the original intention does not come through, even reading it now myself.

        So trying again, as I would like to know if you have any thoughts on this:

        It seems to me that the day and night cycles were indeed created on the first day, meaning that even without the sun and moon “light” would still exist, during the day and darkness come, at night. Now I know all the science people are rolling their eyes, but if you will humor me, what is interesting is the function God gives the sun, moon, and stars, and just as you have noted, the spiritual concepts that we are supposed to learn from the idea of night and day and the “creation” of the “first light”.

        Genesis 1:14-19
        “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.”

        So not saying that the sun, moon, and stars do make the light we see from day to day in our physical existance, but rather that the “light” and perhaps the “evening and morning” might be referring to something more than what we would just consider the night/day cycle. Plus they were given as signs of the time which interact, with the night/day cycle.

        It is like when a solar eclipse happens. Just because there is no light, during the day does not mean time does not move forward, so there seems to be an implication that the “evening and morning” were in play regardless of the light of the luminaries, and they were later created as a way of tracking this system of “time” as it were by using light as a means of indication. Just as how the month cycles can be reckoned by the phases of the sun and moon.

        Also, in regards to the creating of the “light” on the first day, one idea God has been dealing with me on, is that the “light” that was first “created” or rather “manifested” is the light of Messiah, based on this passage:

        John 1:1-5
        “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”

        In other words, perhaps the “light” that God first “created” was indeed His own manifestation, in the form of Jesus Christ into the “blank-canvas” reality he had just created.

        Noting: “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

        So when the Bible says:

        Genesis 1:1-2
        “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

        The verse makes it clear that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are there, then the manifestation of God the Son is brought, into the world. Kind of like if I assembled a cardboard box and sealed the top, then it would just be a dark space inside, but if I used a knife to cut a whole in the side, then the light from the outside shines in. Then I proceed to put my hand in the box. Afterwards, I put a glove with button eyes sewed on (like a sock puppet, but a “glove puppet?”) inside the box, so I can place things in it. In this sense the “Hand” representing the Holy Spirit and the “glove” being the form of Jesus Christ/God the Son.

        So, not that Jesus Christ was not pre-extant as that would be denying that He is God, hence blasphemy. Rather, in the sense that, Christ as God the Son was manifested, or brought forth into that blank-canvas reality where in which He proceeded to bring forth all things as the Word of God:

        “…And God said, Let there be…”

        Revelation 1:4-8
        “John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

        I am (Aleph) Alpha and (Tav) Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord (Jesus), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

        Revelation 22:1-16
        “And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

        And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

        Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

        And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

        And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

        And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

        And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am (Aleph) Alpha and (Tav) Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

        Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

        I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”

        Exodus 3:14
        “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”

        And God said unto Moses, אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, אֶהְיֶה hath sent me unto you.

        I am no scholar, theologian, pastor, or seminary student, but based on the work of many great men and women of God (praise be to Him), that God has had me researching, I do understand that this phrase God uses to refer to Himself: אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה, can be translated in multiple different ways. Here are just three examples:

        – I AM THAT I AM
        – I WILL BE THAT WHICH I WILL BE
        – I WAS THAT WHICH WAS, THAT WHICH, IS AND THAT WHICH WILL EVER BE

        The idea being God is saying He existed eternally and is the Creator of all, then we see Jesus declare thus:

        John 8:58
        “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, אֶהְיֶה.”

        Hebrews 13:8
        “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”

        Malachi 3:6
        “For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”

        Confirming both that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Creator of the universe.

        Here are further interesting points regarding similar spiritual concepts regarding the idea of Christ in the beginning and the use of the concept of night and day that is presented by the Apostles:

        1 Peter 1:13-23
        “Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

        And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

        Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

        For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

        But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”

        Revelations 13:8-9
        “…And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the *Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear…”

        1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
        “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

        In these versus it shows that the idea of night and day also can refer to spiritual death and spiritual life by the salvation through Jesus Christ even from the very beginning. Going back to Isaiah 46:10, perhaps alongside the sequencing of time, the creation account is also referring to the fact that God made the history of all creation known even from the very beginning, but this was later hid by men who, in our sin, sought to deny God.

        Here is an interesting excerpts from the Book of Jubilees found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls along this train of thought:

        “And the angel of the presence spake to Moses according to the word of the Lord, saying: Write the complete history of the creation, how in six days the Lord God finished all His works and all that He created, and kept Sabbath on the seventh day and hallowed it for all ages, and appointed it as a sign for all His works. For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before Him–the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer, and of all the spirits of His creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide (and night), and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of His heart. And thereupon we saw His works, and praised Him, and lauded before Him on account of all His works; for seven great works did He create on the first day. And on the second day He created the firmament in the midst of the waters, and the waters were divided on that day–half of them went up above and half of them went down below the firmament (that was) in the midst over the face of the whole earth. And this was the only work (God) created on the second day. And on the third day He commanded the waters to pass from off the face of the whole earth into one place, and the dry land to appear. And the waters did so as He commanded them, and they retired from off the face of the earth into one place outside of this firmament, and the dry land appeared. And on that day He created for them all the seas according to their separate gathering-places, and all the rivers, and the gatherings of the waters in the mountains and on all the earth, and all the lakes, and all the dew of the earth, and the seed which is sown, and all sprouting things, and fruit-bearing trees, and trees of the wood, and the garden of Eden, in Eden, and all (plants after their kind). These four great works God created on the third day. And on the fourth day He created the sun and the moon and the stars, and set them in the firmament of the heaven, to give light upon all the earth, and to rule over the day and the night, and divide the light from the darkness. And God appointed the sun to be a great sign on the earth for days and for sabbaths and for months and for feasts and for years and for sabbaths of years and for jubilees and for all seasons of the years. And it divideth the light from the darkness [and] for prosperity, that all things may prosper which shoot and grow on the earth. These three kinds He made on the fourth day. And on the fifth day He created great sea monsters in the depths of the waters, for these were the first things of flesh that were created by His hands, the fish and everything that moves in the waters, and everything that flies, the birds and all their kind. And the sun rose above them to prosper (them), and above everything that was on the earth, everything that shoots out of the earth, and all fruit-bearing trees, and all flesh. These three kinds He created on the fifth day. And on the sixth day He created all the animals of the earth, and all cattle, and everything that moves on the earth. And after all this He created man, a man and a woman created He them, and gave him dominion over all that is upon the earth, and in the seas, and over everything that flies, and over beasts and over cattle, and over everything that moves on the earth, and over the whole earth, and over all this He gave him dominion. And these four kinds He created on the sixth day. And there were altogether two and twenty kinds. And He finished all His work on the sixth day–all that is in the heavens and on the earth, and in the seas and in the abysses, and in the light and in the darkness, and in everything. And He gave us a great sign, the Sabbath day, that we should work six days, but keep Sabbath on the seventh day from all work. And all the angels of the presence, and all the angels of sanctification, these two great classes–He hath hidden us.”

        Alongside the versus the canonical versus above, this would show that God after manifesting His light in the form of Jesus Christ proceed to create all the spirits, or life/light as angels and all that have a spirit man and animal are indeed originally designed to be creatures manifesting and glorifying God, each in our designated way.

        Since after all as John 1:1-10 states “God is light” not the light photons around us, or some impersonal, creating force that is esoterically called “the light”, but rather His very nature is Perfect Holiness, All Truth, and His Glory so awesome that it is stronger and more blinding that the brightest, whitest light.

        John 1:1-10
        That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

        This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

        —–

        Here is another excerpt from the Book of Jubilees which in some sense seems to support the prophecies recorded in the Septuigent.

        “For I know and from henceforth will I declare it unto thee, and it is not of my own devising; for the book (lies) written before me, and on the heavenly tablets the division of days is ordained, lest they forget the feasts of the covenant and walk according to the feasts of the Gentiles after their error and after their ignorance.
        For there will be those who will assuredly make observations of the moon -how (it) disturbs the seasons and comes in from year to year ten days too soon.
        For this reason the years will come upon them when they will disturb (the order), and make an abominable (day) the day of testimony, and an unclean day a feast day, and they will confound all the days, the holy with the unclean, and the unclean day with the holy; for they will go wrong as to the months and sabbaths and feasts and jubilees.
        For this reason I command and testify to thee that thou mayst testify to them; for after thy death thy children will disturb (them), so that they will not make the year three hundred and sixty-four days only, and for this reason they will go wrong as to the new moons and seasons and sabbaths and festivals, and they will eat all kinds of blood with all kinds of flesh.”

        Excerpt from the Book of Enoch:

        “With respect to the progress of the sun in heaven, it enters and goes out of each gate for thirty days, with the leaders of the thousand classes of the stars; with four which are added, and appertain to the four quarters of the year, which conduct them, and accompany them at four periods.

        Respecting these, men greatly err, and do not compute them in the computation of every age; for they greatly err respecting them; nor do men know accurately that they are in the computation of the year. But indeed these are marked down for ever; one in the first gate, one in the third, one in the fourth, and one in the sixth:

        So that the year is completed in three hundred and sixty-four days.

        Truly has been stated, and accurately has been computed that which is marked down; for the luminaries, the months, the fixed periods, the years, and the days, Uriel has explained to me, and communicated to me; whom the Lord of all creation, on my account, commanded (according to the might of heaven, and the power which it possesses both by night and by day) to explain the laws of light to man, of the sun, moon, and stars, and of all the powers of heaven, which are turned with their respective orbs.”

        So, first I was like well we have 364 days, but then what occurred, after praying, was the thing mentioned in the original post that:
        Is how does God reckon time like our how we do it now?
        Because our 364 days (technically 364.25) may not be how God reckons it. As you mentioned John:

        His thoughts are not our thoughts. His ways are not our ways.

        Which is what I was trying to illustrate on the original comment. Sorry that the idea did not come through clearly, my bad writing.

        Like

    • Yes agreed talking about it would be much easier. I am still on the west coast, so unless the coffee shop is maybe in Oklahoma, Kansas, or maybe Texas, it might be a bit of a difficult.

      I guess the options is if I am able to obtain admission to your college and take your class a as a transfer student, I suppose.

      Unfortunately, do not do facebook or twitter, my email account linked to the facebook got hacked and I ended deleting everything to be safe.

      Also, sorry that the posts are always so long, got a lot of things, on mind regarding Scripture, and by God’s grace stumbled upon your blog. I feel it is one of the few places where faith can be discussed, debated, and even challenged in a healthy way without fear of fighting or getting angry.

      Still got a lot more stuff I want to discuss, especially because I was never able to follow-up with a small comment back in November that I had planned too, as mentioned. Plus, after reading your host of new posts especially “The Incredible Shrinking Church” and “The Real Bible Code”, the discussion you had with “Stevenii” (I am assuming someone you know outside internetland, really got some thoughts going, and by God’s grace had me turn back to Scripture for further study. I know many of the issues he brought up are things that I had really struggled with, and some continue too, but at this point with how God has been so kind in helping me come to faith, I can honestly say that any area of issue is that strawman arguments that unfortunately many of us have been brought up with, and the reason it is confusing is not because there is not a reasonable answer that “makes sense”, it is just that I do not know what that answer is yet. Hence the need to study the Word, by the guidance of His Holy Spirit.

      It is kinda like going to a 3D movie with a pair of sunglasses and earplugs on. Everything is dark and hard to see and hear, so it is easy to misconstrue things. Even if I take the sunglasses off and the ear plugs out, still don’t see the full picture into you put the 3D glasses on. So the Lord is showing me with Scripture that unless we go back into the OT or forward into the NT, with the understanding that Christ has restored, it is impossible to come to any sort of reasonable answer to anything, and everything seems contradictory. That is what I struggled with the most growing up.

      Like

  4. I really appreciate that perspective, and completely resonate with it. The way you describe your current lens based on your upbringing is very much in line with my experience. Approaching truth with the mind of a scholar, but the spirit of a child, is an interesting balance. But once the Spirit begins to reveal things, that humble posture becomes natural. And learning becomes an experience of grace.

    Like

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